The Gaming Den

shadzar wrote:on the idea of pollution, how about magical waste?

attempted potions and all are poured into some reservoir...

Better way to use this idea: potion miscibility table. Boom.

except for the OTHER magical waste...failed enchanted item attempts, failed spells with partial used material components that the materials are infused with part of the magical energies thought the spell didnt fully work...and all other means of magical waste and the byproducts of magic.

how many spells actually say they "consume" the components?

eating a spider obvious does because you ate it, but what about a diamond throw to the ground and shattered? those diamond pieces might still be infused with magical energy, and are now magical waste. (or residuum in 4th...)

(didnt know what 3.x called that or if it even had "potion compatibility")

shadzar wrote:(didnt know what 3.x called that or if it even had "potion compatibility")

I don't think it does... I suppose you might have to go with mutant fish or something.

oh! 2nd does have a potion compatibility table to tell what happens when mixing two or more potions, some results being poison, they cancel each other out, both still work independently....

the still working even when mixed bit allows for the pollution, as the liguid would work for any of those, but then others added may change it...so with enough you could jsut claim "very bad things" from having this cesspool of failed or expired potions.

EDIT: it DOES exist for 3.x, but was an april fool's article....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b

Shocked Eyes (00): Discovery seems relevant...
Maybe explosion if it waits long enough...

EDIT: or poison gas, or hostile monsters...

There are a couple creatures I know of which are supposed to be the result of magical pollution. The first is the Grisgols (MM3), which are constructs of magic refuse, animated by the phylactery of a lich (no, I have no clue why the phylactery is required). They need be deliberately constructed, but there's no reason you can't say they arise "naturally" from magic waste.

The second is a template from Dragon Magazine, #350, and is in fact accompanied by several creatures centered around magical mishaps which I didn't remember. It has three mutation templates, Arcane Blood, Poisonous and Stonebone, a couple "polluted locations" that can be dropped into games, the Artificer's Dump and Grave-Tainted Well, and "Creatures of Corruption: Monsters of Magical Mishap" with the Alchemical Undead, an undead which can rise automatically in alchemy-dump sites, the Corrupted Creature template, where magic has basically turned to cancer, and the self-explanitory Toxic Ooze.

Apparently there may be some stuff of use in Cityscape as far as pollution goes.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Yes, suns burn down to create iron. However, gold comes from stars that burned iron and created gold. It's a crazy cycle.

Not quite. Big stars form Iron, and cannot fuse more regardless of size. Iron core grows until it collapses to a neutron star, or black hole, depending on size.

Supernovas are the collapse event: starting in the centre, they make everything higher than Iron by the density of free neutrons and energy in the blast front (as the falling star passes through the outgoing energy of collapse near the speed of light). But even they can't make things as heavy as Gold.

Latest theory is the collision of two neutron stars is the only event with sufficient energy, neutron density, and free large nuclei in one place to kick up all the really heavy stuff. That concentration of heavy elements then causes any hydrogen clouds the blast wave passes through to collapse into good-size new stars, with planets, like ours.

shadzar wrote:since D&D magic, the arcane type, comes from warping the fabric of the universe, then that fabric start to unravel as it were in the area.

My point was that warping the fabric of the universe is not a unique aspect of D&D's magic. That could be used to describe magic in Ars Magica, Mage, or virtually any setting that uses something called "magic". D&D magic has unique aspects, like a sorcerer class that uses Charisma and in-born ability to create magic effects, or specific spells that function in specific ways. Ars, Mage, M&M, Runequest... these don't have a spell called tasha's hideous, uncontrollable laughter, which means that spell is part of what makes D&D magic unique.

The question to ask of any idea is not "did this happen because of magic?" but "did this happen because the world uses D&D's system of magic?"

Judging__Eagle wrote:73 repetitions of the "tell the Efreeti to summon some more Efreeti" routine results in enough Efreeti to create a gravity hole of firey assholes heavy enough to potentially crush a planet larger than most D&D prime worlds.

I've been leaning heavily toward this being a part of the downfall, since it's uniquely D&D. For the sake of flavor I prefer the idea that the first caster to think of this (name suggestions?) gets up to an arbitrary number of chained efreeti repetitions and the god of fire intervenes. The number becomes holy to those who worship the fire god. Legends tell of this caster's goals and the vast power he wielded for a short time. Bards speculate endlessly about what he meant to do with all that power, to the point that people think he actually accomplished something other than repetitive folly. Magic is blasted from the world, and in the aftermath The Way Things Work has changed.

I have misgivings about putting all the eggs in one basket. I'd prefer for the players not to look through all their research efforts and say (either to me or in character to the god of fire), "What? One stupid trick of binding cheese is all it took? Why change the whole system instead of just fixing that one spell?" Also it smacks a little of metagaming - not the chain-binding for wishes plan, that's totally legit - but because of the god jumping in and saying "You didn't think I'd allow that at my table, did you?" Then again, it's better than the whole world being ruined by its mass doubling, which just leaves you with sunfodder and no more game.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:We are looking for ways that overuse of D&D magic could lead to the downfall of an empire. One possible factor might be water pollution. Even very weak casters can use spells to create water...

I think it's pretty well established that there are at least as many ways to obliterate matter as there are ways to produce water. Add to that the plane of water, which is endless. If it holds an endless supply of water, it can hold an endless influx of water. I just don't see a water problem as being feasible, even though I do love the idea of ending the Empire in a globe-spanning deluge enough that I might throw it in with the pre-history of the world.

shadzar wrote:except for the OTHER magical waste...failed enchanted item attempts, failed spells with partial used material components that the materials are infused with part of the magical energies thought the spell didnt fully work...and all other means of magical waste and the byproducts of magic.

The "magic pollution" idea is a neat one, but another one that isn't specific to D&D's magic, at least not explicitly. There are a couple of ways that it is: spell components are "consumed", and magic item creation can and will be widespread. Making a magic item isn't remotely unique to D&D, but if I use PF rules for how people make them (which I'm planning to do, since this is as much to smear PF as it is to end an empire) then magic items will be as special as the technologically amazing plastic containers are to our world. I mean, people 200 years ago would have sold their mother to get a nearly unbreakable squeeze bottle of ketchup that almost never goes bad and makes things taste good. It really is astounding stuff.

However, how does magic pollution lead to an empire collapsing? It's not as though it's going to ruin everything by killing off all the natural resources or by bringing hordes of toxic avenger-like jerks that overwhelm thousands of druids and armies and crap. Also, how do you use this idea without it becoming a BS preachy environmental message? barf.

How about this: The Empire is founded by secular humanist Ur-Priests and runs almost entirely on stolen divine magic, with very little arcane influence. The Ur-Priest overlords smash and burn the temples of the gods, outlaw their religions, and generally stamp out theism wheverever they find it in order to keep the gods weak and prevent retaliation.

The Empire goes to shit when the gods actually start dying from lack of worship, and the Ur-Priests start losing their powers.

hyzmarca wrote:How about this: The Empire is founded by secular humanist Ur-Priests and runs almost entirely on stolen divine magic, with very little arcane influence. The Ur-Priest overlords smash and burn the temples of the gods, outlaw their religions, and generally stamp out theism wheverever they find it in order to keep the gods weak and prevent retaliation.

The Empire goes to shit when the gods actually start dying from lack of worship, and the Ur-Priests start losing their powers.

Combine with the ideas found in the god-enslaving thread for double your jollies.

hyzmarca wrote:How about this: The Empire is founded by secular humanist Ur-Priests and runs almost entirely on stolen divine magic, with very little arcane influence. The Ur-Priest overlords smash and burn the temples of the gods, outlaw their religions, and generally stamp out theism wheverever they find it in order to keep the gods weak and prevent retaliation.

The Empire goes to shit when the gods actually start dying from lack of worship, and the Ur-Priests start losing their powers.

Leaving only isolated wizard towers, the rare sorcerer, various secret nature cults, and ancient artifacts as sources of magic?

Bihlbo wrote:

shadzar wrote:since D&D magic, the arcane type, comes from warping the fabric of the universe, then that fabric start to unravel as it were in the area.

My point was that warping the fabric of the universe is not a unique aspect of D&D's magic. That could be used to describe magic in Ars Magica, Mage, or virtually any setting that uses something called "magic". D&D magic has unique aspects, like a sorcerer class that uses Charisma and in-born ability to create magic effects, or specific spells that function in specific ways. Ars, Mage, M&M, Runequest... these don't have a spell called tasha's hideous, uncontrollable laughter, which means that spell is part of what makes D&D magic unique.

The question to ask of any idea is not "did this happen because of magic?" but "did this happen because the world uses D&D's system of magic?"

Tasha's, Bigby's etc does NOT make D&D's magic system unique. NOTHING makes D&D's magic system unique. It uses the system adapted from Jack Vance, thus why it is called Vancian.

that just means that spells must be prepared to use them rather than have limited energy and access to any spell, or unlimited energy to cast any spell.

and cleric and druid magic doesnt exactly use Vancian magic, so there really isnt ONE D&D magic system....at least not until 4th edition.

divine favor can be lost, so that ANY priest (cleric or druid) stops granting powers to them

arcane spell loss could come from warping of the mind since the spells are "memorized" and stored there.*

*in 3rd i dont really know much about the sorcerer, but think it more akin to arcane without memorization.

with Vancian, and having to memorize spells, there really isnt much different than any other type of magic. some ficiton requires a spellbook to cast a spell, others you can learn the spell over time, and have no limit to the number of spells you can remember save for the depth of ones on memory such as remembering people's names.

So it would be hard to say, "based on the nature of Vancian magic, the magic is destroyed", because it is so limited in nature compared to others, that it would be MUCH easier to destroy other magic systems.

you have to have something affect the minds of people to prevent them from memorizing spells, again overuse comes to mind so that the magical energy patterns cannot not be remembered to duplicate to effect the spell itself. then you are at a point where going insane of a brain defect causes inability to use magic, and this again can be done with ANY other magic system.

you have to tackle Vancian to base the destruction of magic on D&D's magic system, without just being general so that it could happen with ANY other magic system.

EDIT: mised this part first time...

Bihlbo wrote:

shadzar wrote:except for the OTHER magical waste...failed enchanted item attempts, failed spells with partial used material components that the materials are infused with part of the magical energies thought the spell didnt fully work...and all other means of magical waste and the byproducts of magic.

The "magic pollution" idea is a neat one, but another one that isn't specific to D&D's magic, at least not explicitly. There are a couple of ways that it is: spell components are "consumed", and magic item creation can and will be widespread. Making a magic item isn't remotely unique to D&D, but if I use PF rules for how people make them (which I'm planning to do, since this is as much to smear PF as it is to end an empire) then magic items will be as special as the technologically amazing plastic containers are to our world. I mean, people 200 years ago would have sold their mother to get a nearly unbreakable squeeze bottle of ketchup that almost never goes bad and makes things taste good. It really is astounding stuff.

However, how does magic pollution lead to an empire collapsing? It's not as though it's going to ruin everything by killing off all the natural resources or by bringing hordes of toxic avenger-like jerks that overwhelm thousands of druids and armies and crap. Also, how do you use this idea without it becoming a BS preachy environmental message? barf.

well again the wild and dead magic zones concept...some areas lose ability for magic to function, and others magic is so strong that the effects arent always the wanted result.

the pollution could cause people living in this area, city, empire, whatever.. to become magically sterile. not only do future generations become affected and unable to use magic, but the current ones are rendered unable to perform magic. prolonged exposure to this area also prevents anyone entering it from being able to use magic after a time.

working with the Vancian magic system itself, this means that the magic has warped the body so much that memorization and channeling of those energy patterns is not possible, and clerics and druids, who channel the gods themselves, have ben exposed to an unpure or unclean magic that likewise makes the gods energies not able to be channeled. the gods dont even hear their clerics anymore and just figure they are not needed by them as much and focus on other godly things than just this one area.

to remove the PSA feel, just dont clean up the magical pollution. let it stay there. since you are creating in essence a dead-magic zone, then it really doesnt matter as magic wont function in the area, so the pollution wont matter either, it will be just as bad to have the magic now as it is to dump your chamberpot on the street.

Bihlbo wrote:

Avoraciopoctules wrote:We are looking for ways that overuse of D&D magic could lead to the downfall of an empire. One possible factor might be water pollution. Even very weak casters can use spells to create water...

I think it's pretty well established that there are at least as many ways to obliterate matter as there are ways to produce water. Add to that the plane of water, which is endless. If it holds an endless supply of water, it can hold an endless influx of water. I just don't see a water problem as being feasible, even though I do love the idea of ending the Empire in a globe-spanning deluge enough that I might throw it in with the pre-history of the world.

As I said, water pollution is a possible factor. I doubt it alone would ruin a nation like what we are considering. However, your point about the plane of water is interesting. True, putting excess water back in there is probably the most responsible solution. But, though we have established that the people in charge of this nation are powerful and competent enough to use that power to forge a stable nation, that doesn't necessarily mean they are great at long term planning. A slapdash solution might serve as a gateway to more problems later. Unless, of course, the people in charge are smart enough to hire diviners as consultants before making major decisions.

Putting water back into its source plane requires sufficient pressure to displace the water on the other side. That would be work. So would using disintegration rays or magic sponges, given sufficient volume. It would be easier to open a portal to empty space. So let's say the wizards in charge want a fast solution, and they dump it into the Positive Energy Plane without doing a bunch of divinations beforehand. Maybe that serves as a vector for some wacky magical plague or something.

More generally, with great power comes the ability to make innocent mistakes that have a terrific impact when their consequences fully manifest. Come up with a problem, then come up a solution that takes it for granted that no matter how many issues come with it, your magic will be able to kludge an easy solution. A cascade of ever-expanding imperfect fixes might eventually cause a bunch of people who were mostly working independently to just want to give up and start anew someplace else. And now a bunch of the magic holding the empire together is imperfectly understood.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

hyzmarca wrote:How about this: The Empire is founded by secular humanist Ur-Priests and runs almost entirely on stolen divine magic, with very little arcane influence. The Ur-Priest overlords smash and burn the temples of the gods, outlaw their religions, and generally stamp out theism wheverever they find it in order to keep the gods weak and prevent retaliation.

The Empire goes to shit when the gods actually start dying from lack of worship, and the Ur-Priests start losing their powers.

Leaving only isolated wizard towers, the rare sorcerer, various secret nature cults, and ancient artifacts as sources of magic?

And that could be the plan all along.

Sure, the collapse of infrastructure leaves the commoners in a lurch, but it's a hell of a lot better than what happens when a high level priest of an evil god comes to town and infinitely preferable to the very laws of reality being changed as a side-effect by one of the gods' frequent divine brawls.

Judging__Eagle wrote:As for the conversion of Au (79) to Fe (26)*, I can't know what the exact process is; but the actual nucleii of the Au are being split in a non-fission based reaction, and the resultant matter and energy are then converted into a much less atomically stable Fe.

Think of it like taking a "volume" of wood; and then rendering it down into kindeling or sawdust. The total mass actually goes down (losses in terms of cutting, by-material caught on tools, off-cast material, etc.) yet the volume goes up; and the resultant material is also much more volatile and shapable.

In the case of 50 Gold Pieces to an Iron Wall (more like an Iron sheet, or 1-2" thick slab); the highly corrosion resistant gold, with a higher amount of neutrons, protons and electrons; gets rendered down, and the fission energy by-product gets recollected to form more iron (the energy to matter conversion is only a specious assumption, but one can't split things at the atomic level and not get legendary amounts of off-cast energy. The resultant iron is also less atomically stable than the gold.

What is this i don't even
Atomic stability means gold doesn't corrode and iron does. Nuclear stability means you can, theoretically, gain energy by transforming matter into more stable forms. Iron is the most stable element. If not for threshold energies, everything would have collapsed into iron, with trace amounts of other elements existing in a fluctuating/statistical sense as allowed by temperature (~exp(-|E(element)-E(iron)|/E(iron))).